Pentecostals & Grace

[Free]

After reading this thread I am even moreso thankful for the church I have been sent to. Just sunday my pastor preached a fantabulous sermon on Grace, expounding with scriptures, basicaly what John Atkinson said above. And I understand y'alls point on The baptist's embracing of grace but they sure do fail to understand that it's grace that gives us an ability to live and stay within holiness standards!

[Just wondering]

If there wasn't grace nobody would be saved.

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!


Jason:
"I believe the water and Spirit message is the most scripturally accurate teaching concerning the New Birth. But all that we do goes down the drain if we teach it without the foundation (grace). And I do believe in our movement that has been our downfall, and is the biggest reason that our "Holy Ghost" filled churches are becoming or have become so pitifully carnal."

Whosoever is preaching the Gospel, is preaching grace:
"Whosoever believes and is baptized shall be saved."; then,
"Repent...be baptized...shall receive the gift..."; and once more:
"Whosoever shall call upon the NAME of the Lord shall be saved..."; and finally,
"...for this promise is unto you...".



Brother villa

[Former PK]

We start to flirt with verbal gymnastics IMO. I think in the back of our Pentecostal Minds we think we are saved by Acts 2:38 and out list. We will detest openly "Salvation by works" but in fact it is commonly believed in practice.

I think many Pentecostals would agree to the idea that salvation can be lost due to inattention to some detail. I have heard the phrase; " I'd rather do too much for Jesus than too little." On the first pass that sounds very good, but the underling message is you have to "do" something to stay saved. There are dozens of subtle ideas like that in everyday usage.

Maybe I'm in left field, but I've come to the belief that to loose salvation takes a conscience effort.

[Victorious]

Originally Posted by Jason

MY experience has been that grace isn't preached much at all. Worship, Acts 2:38, peaching against frivolous things, and "God want's to bless you" preaching. Alot of milk and little meat.

I don't think it is a pentecostal problem, I think it is a generational problem.......I think we as a movement have really lost the experience that the early penteostal pioneers (in this country,1900-1940's) had.

I've read plenty of books and storeis from those people, and can't hardly read one without being put to shame, and moved to prayer.

Now days, pentecostal arent worried about fasting, their worried about what resturant thier going to after church. Their not worried about coming to church because they need God, their concerned with how fancy thier dress is, if it matches thier shoes, hair bow, and purse. Or if the silk tie matches the shirt, or if the shoes match the suit. In other words, it's a fashion show, especially in bigger churches, and ESPECIALLY at Camp meeting.

I've got to stop here, that's one of my pet peeves. I'll save my opinoins for a thread some time.

I think you're right about there not being enough emphasis on prayer and fasting. My church's pastor challenged us the Sunday before last to set aside one day a week for prayer and/or fasting until the first of next year with plans to expand it further after that. I thank God that we have a pastor with a heart after God and a vision for the church. I have been attending there for about one year and we are experiencing revival. Revival is being experienced all across the state of Arkansas in our Apostolic churches.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by John Atkinson

Grace first draws us to the cross.
Grace opens the door for us to walk through
Grace keeps us once we are on the path
Grace restores us when we trip over our own feet while walking on the path
Grace warns us if we start to stray
Grace helps us get back on track if we ignore the warning.

Because of a lack of understanding about grace too many of our folks live in fear of failure, rather than expectation of success. We miss the joy in the journey because we get this image that God will squash us if we absent-mindedly break one of the rules.

We miss the fact that Jesus actually did do everything needed for us to be saved, all we do is get in on what he provided.

When we understand grace then we understand God's love, and when we love God and our fellows, we don't work ill towards them, and we don't sin against God.

By the engraft nature of the Holy Ghost.

We make this thing way too hard on ourselves and others. Living for God is easy.... the way of the trangressor is hard.

Because of a lack of understanding about grace too many of our folks live in fear of failure, rather than expectation of success. We miss the joy in the journey because we get this image that God will squash us if we absent-mindedly break one of the rules.





WOW... This is really good. This is a subject I have been talking with my children about recently. Really good post.

[Dordt]

Because of a lack of understanding about grace too many of our folks live in fear of failure, rather than expectation of success. We miss the joy in the journey because we get this image that God will squash us if we absent-mindedly break one of the rules.

Yes. Do this and do that, otherwise you are going to be lost!
It's called legalism and you find it in lots of churches.

[Just wondering]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

Because of a lack of understanding about grace too many of our folks live in fear of failure, rather than expectation of success. We miss the joy in the journey because we get this image that God will squash us if we absent-mindedly break one of the rules.

Grace isn't giving you a right to sin but it does take care of you when you do fall.

I use to live in fear of failure. There seem to be so many rules that I just couldn't live by all of them. Then God showed me that I was to love and serve him. When I started loving him instead of trying to obey the rules I started getting closer to God. Fear of not being good enough was keeping my from him.

I have 5 children. There are times that I am disappointed in decisions that they make. But I have never stopped loving them. When they make bad decisions I still love them and will do anything I can to help them. Our heavenly father is bigger than we are. So if we will do this for our earthly children, do you not think that he will do it for his children. There will come a day of judgement but until that day we live under grace and mercy.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Former PK

Maybe I'm in left field, but I've come to the belief that to lose salvation takes a conscience effort.

I recently told my wife the same thing. All this time we've been made to believe that you can lose your salvation over the smallest detail or action (ex. trimming dead ends), yet the more I study about grace and salvation, I realize that while its not impossible to be lost after you've been saved, it isn't as easy as its made out to be. I am beginning to believe you have to all but turn and walk away from God to be lost. As long as you are repentant and making an effort to live for him, I believe you can make it.

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!


Jason:
”I am of the opinion that we Pentecostals would do well to take a lesson or two on grace from the Baptists. I do believe in an Acts 2:38 salvation, however, I find that in GENERAL most people in our churches are quite ignorant of the grace of God.
By this I don't necessarily mean that don't believe in grace, for they do. but that they are ignorant of grace in 2 ways:
1)They cannot define grace, not explain how grace works in salvation
2)They fail to realize how much their salvation depends on the grace of God, and not on themselves
Because of this, many people in our churches are spiritually immature. We have some very committed people in that they know Acts 2:38, and they follow the 'rules", but as for governing themselves, they are weak, because they think that if they make a mistake one way or another they could lose thier salvation. All of this because of ignorance.
I do believe that we need more teaching on salvation (what, why, and how), and less on Acts 2:38. Does that make sense to anyone?
What say ye?”

What?
How can we “take a lesson” from anyone who has not received Grace, but dismiss it? Is Grace not found in Acts 2:38? Or in Mark 16:16? Or in I Corinthians 15:1-4 Or can one be actually “saved” without the Gospel contained in those scriptures?
I must agree that many in the Church are weak because of their ignorance: but that can be attributed to bad teaching, or the lack of sound doctrine, from the Ministry! What we need is teaching to UNDERSTAND Acts 2:38 even more!


Maw-Maw
” Justice ~ when you get what you deserve
Mercy ~ when you don't get what you deserve
Grace ~ when you get what you don't deserve”

Justice brings us face to face with the knowledge of judgment under the “Law of Sn and death”, and all are found guilty under it;
Mercy “…rejoices against judgment…”, by withholding the righteous judgment of death until a promise greater than mercy was introduced;
Grace is the fulfilled promise of eternal life received by everyone who has believed, beginning on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:38).


Brother villa

[jhlent]

Originally Posted by Jason

... yet the more I study about grace and salvation, I realize that while its not impossible to be lost after you've been saved, it isn't as easy as its made out to be. I am beginning to believe you have to all but turn and walk away from God to be lost...

Originally Posted by Hnovilla

His NAME is Jesus!
Jason:
”I am of the opinion that we Pentecostals would do well to take a lesson or two on grace from the Baptists. I do believe in an Acts 2:38 salvation, however, I find that in GENERAL most people in our churches are quite ignorant of the grace of God.
By this I don't necessarily mean that don't believe in grace, for they do. but that they are ignorant of grace in 2 ways:
1)They cannot define grace, not explain how grace works in salvation
2)They fail to realize how much their salvation depends on the grace of God, and not on themselves
Because of this, many people in our churches are spiritually immature. We have some very committed people in that they know Acts 2:38, and they follow the 'rules", but as for governing themselves, they are weak, because they think that if they make a mistake one way or another they could lose thier salvation. All of this because of ignorance.
I do believe that we need more teaching on salvation (what, why, and how),and less on Acts 2:38. Does that make sense to anyone?
What say ye?”

What?
How can we “take a lesson” from anyone who has not received Grace, but dismiss it? Is Grace not found in Acts 2:38? Or in Mark 16:16? Or in I Corinthians 15:1-4 Or can one be actually “saved” without the Gospel contained in those scriptures?
I must agree that many in the Church are weak because of their ignorance: but that can be attributed to bad teaching, or the lack of sound doctrine, from the Ministry! What we need is teaching to UNDERSTAND Acts 2:38 even more!

Maw-Maw
” Justice ~ when you get what you deserve
Mercy ~ when you don't get what you deserve
Grace ~ when you get what you don't deserve”

Justice brings us face to face with the knowledge of judgment under the “Law of Sn and death”, and all are found guilty under it;
Mercy “…rejoices against judgment…”, by withholding the righteous judgment of death until a promise greater than mercy was introduced;
Grace is the fulfilled promise of eternal life received by everyone who has believed, beginning on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:38).

Brother villa

Bro V. - - What - - you sounds a LITTLE Shocked.....

Didn't you know that you can almost anything you want and the Lord still HAS to Accept you...
You can sin - but thats OK
You can lie & deceive - but thats OK
You can live in a Delusion - but thats OK
You can want LESS of Acts 2.38 - but thats OK
You can do ALL BUT turn away from the Lord - and ALL THATS OK

Well Bro V. I guess from the tone of your post you haven't drank you KoolAid yet...

Come on DRINK & be MERRY - join the party
DON'T you WANT FREEDOM from Legalism...??

[jhlent]

Originally Posted by Jason

... I do believe that we need more teaching on salvation (what, why, and how), and less on Acts 2:38. Does that make sense to anyone?

What say ye?

Well I guess I should ALSO answer his question

Does that make sense...........

YES - providing you really are wanting to be a Baptist
YES - providing you are wanting to excuse away sin
YES - providing you are wanting to remove Acts 2.38 from your life
YES - providing you don't mind living in a delusion

Remove the foundational truth of Acts 2.38 and what do you have - - someone desiring to be a baptist

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!


jhlent
"Bro V. - - What - - you sounds a LITTLE Shocked....."

Well, Beloved, I was...just a little. I go away for awhile, and the forum is not what it used to be: and I believe I was one of the last apostolics to register! Oh! That's right: I should be more sensitive to those who would be apostolics without the full Gospel, and without much sound doctrine.

Kind of reminds me of an evangelical (shall I dare call it) hymn. It goes something like: "You have had your say, now allow Me to speak: 'Where is that young man who killed the giant; where are Moses' successors; where is that Daniel, who worshipped me; where is the holiness of Joseph; where are those three boys in Babylon, that preferred burning to yielding; where are those women who dared to commit themselves, like Esther?' "


Brothr villa

[diane]

Give me grace, grace, and more grace.
Grace through faith or you saved and not of your on.

[lellingsworth]

Let's remember that we are not there YET.